Baptism as a Symbol of Dedication - Anther unbiblical doctrine of men

by doubtfull1799 in

i'm not sure if this has been discussed before - i did a brief search and couldn't find anything on this particular aspect.. for those atheists who believe it is all nonsense anyway, feel free to ignore this post.

i happen to be of that same persuasion but i still enjoy discussing it on a philosophical level.

its funny how you may have left because of the more "out there" doctrines and chronology etc not making sense and you come to see that they are going "beef the things written", but the longer you're out and the more you think about your old beliefs, even the most common basic or "fundamental" doctrines are also "going beyond the things written.. baptism as a symbol of dedication is a case in point.

Cold Steel

Baptism was viewed by the early Christians as more than just an outward display of inward commitment, but as a covenant. That's why John 3:3-7 records:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Baptism is required for all men (and women) who gain eternal life. This is what was meant as being born of the water. Being born of the Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. The JWs believe that all who are baptized receive the power to become ministers of God with the authority to preach, teach, expound, exhort and baptize. The strange thing is, men cannot baptize their own children in the Organization, though I know of nothing that specifically prohibits it. The Organization won't recognize it as official unless it has one of its own elders perform it and until the baptizee answers a pledge of loyalty to the Society.

The Bible never specifically states what will happen to those who never have the opportunity of being baptized. If someone must have these to gain eternal life, that leaves a lot of people seemingly hanging. The Bible also never answers the questions of how to baptize, who may baptize and what one must say while performing it. When ancient ordinances were performed in the Old Testament, they required that the priests do it. We also know the first century Christian Church had priests, deacons, teachers, bishops, seventy and elders. Did these positions require ordination and instruction? We don't know because the Bible was never intended to be a church manual. We know that Jesus ordained his apostles, but beyond that, nothing.

11

Another Blood Question

by Cold Steel in

village idiot » by the way, [one's wife] can be disfellowshipped for allowing her child to have a transfusion.. just a side question here, but what if the husband allows a child to receive a transfusion over the objection of the wife?.

let's say the wife joins the jws but the husband doesn't?

then, nine years later the husband allows their child to receive the transfusion.

Cold Steel

Glad things worked out, TD. Just out of curiosity, how did the elders know to show up there? Did they speak to your wife, ask to speak to her or try to exert any influence on her? Were they nice or were they "on a mission"? Did they get the message?

I find it odd that they just show up without first making any phone calls.

Did they bring their scriptures with them?

11

Another Blood Question

by Cold Steel in

village idiot » by the way, [one's wife] can be disfellowshipped for allowing her child to have a transfusion.. just a side question here, but what if the husband allows a child to receive a transfusion over the objection of the wife?.

let's say the wife joins the jws but the husband doesn't?

then, nine years later the husband allows their child to receive the transfusion.

Cold Steel

Yes, AR-10s might have an adverse effect on a pushy elder, but I've been told when it comes to JWs and blood that it's not unusual for church authorities to show up not only to counsel the members and act as go-betweens. One fiend who worked emergency rooms I a metropolitan area said that if they could get to the members or the parents before the church leaders, they could usually influence them in the right direction. But once the church guys showed up, it was a different ball of wax.

The staff would do everything they could to separate the parents or patients from the church authorities while the doctors counseled them, and they'd also bring in chaplains to try to explain why the JW biblical exegesis was not only wrong, but destructive.

Members who needed blood were more likely to sacrifice their own lives than those who had children who needed blood. And apparently JW parents who lost children that could have been saved were more likely to be divorced in the painful months that followed. So yes, it's a topic that interests me.

My friend said he never had a case where the father wanted to save a child and the mother wanted to let it die. If the father was for blood transfusion, the mother always went with it. Once the elders, or whoever, arrived on the scene it was another story. They did everything they could to keep the doctors and other medical staff at bay, and as for the chaplains, it was get em outta here! There's the door!

Nice guys.

27

Jehovah's Witnesses and Love

by Cold Steel in

comments?

stories?

reminiscences?.

Cold Steel

konceptual99 » I think there can be a lot of love amongst Witnesses. The problem is that it is conditional.

Among the JWs is one thing. How are they at helping those outside of the sect? Do they limit the groceries to those on the inside or do they help people on the outside? How about earthquake relief and flood relief? Are we likely to see JWs involved in these?

11

Another Blood Question

by Cold Steel in

village idiot » by the way, [one's wife] can be disfellowshipped for allowing her child to have a transfusion.. just a side question here, but what if the husband allows a child to receive a transfusion over the objection of the wife?.

let's say the wife joins the jws but the husband doesn't?

then, nine years later the husband allows their child to receive the transfusion.

Cold Steel

TD » Assuming this is something weighing on your mind, I could explain in more detail when you come back through that Stargate.....

I'm back and I'm watching the thread. If it's something you don't mind sharing, I'd like to hear it. It's one of the less endearing traits of the sect and I have a difficult time seeing the reasoning.

16

Why does Jehovah choose certain people to rule with him in heaven?

by iWant2Learn in

in other words, what good works have the 144000 done to be secured a place in heaven?

i am told they have already been chosen.

does that mean that jehovah also knows our future?

Cold Steel

Different religions have different ways of looking at the 144,000, most viewing them as representatives of the twelve tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. These will serve as representatives that go out into the world to gather the remnants of Israel prior to the return of Christ. These will not be appointed forever, but only until their missions are complete. The Jehovah's Witnesses employ what's called replacement theology in which as all New Testament references, promises and blessings to the twelve tribes of Israel are replaced and given instead to the body of Christ, that is, the church. It is used by a number of Christian sects, mostly those that were formed before the signing of the Balfour Declaration (November 2, 1917), which was the beginning of recognizing Palestine as the reestablished nation of Israel. Isaiah and other prophets had prophesied Israel would be gathered from the nations of the earth (see Isaiah 11, for example).

But the Jehovah's Witnesses were formed before Israel formally became a nation in 1949. And since Israel did not exist, replacement theology was the only logical fulfillment of these prophecies. Sadly, when Israel became a nation, their doctrine was already set in stone! Thus, if they were to reapply those prophecies to Israel, it would make them appear to be revamping their eschatology.

John wrote: “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on Mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:1) According to both the Old and New Testaments, when Yahweh returns to the earth, he will stand upon the Mount of Olives (Mount Zion). See Zechariah 12, 14 and Revelation 11. The two prophets raised up to the Jewish people at that time have just been killed, but after three and a half days life enters into them and they stand upon their feet and ascend to meet the returning Savior. Jesus' feet stand upon the Mount of Olives and with him the 144,000.

The JWs have centered their entire doctrine on themselves, however, and this is a problem. It's best to read the scriptures and try to piece them together with a clean sheet of paper. If you begin a journey with a bad map, where you begin and where you end up will be in error. As I read some of their prophecies, and their exegeses, I'm flabbergasted at the liberties they take.

18

Colossians and The Gospel of Thomas - a work in progress

by Doug Mason in

as i prepare the pre-draft stage of my study into the evolutions of salvation, i have drafted a chapter on colossians and on the gospel of thomas.

http://www.jwstudies.com/colossians_soteriologies.pdf.

http://www.jwstudies.com/the_soteriology_of_thomas.pdf.

Cold Steel

The above links are bad. Here are some working ones.

Forty Day Ministry

February 12, 1964 by Hugh Nibley

Lecture given February 12, 1964.

Listen to recording:

Part 1

Part 2

Even though the lecture was given in 1964, the info is still relevant. Since it was given, the topic is still studiously avoided in theological circles.

18

Colossians and The Gospel of Thomas - a work in progress

by Doug Mason in

as i prepare the pre-draft stage of my study into the evolutions of salvation, i have drafted a chapter on colossians and on the gospel of thomas.

http://www.jwstudies.com/colossians_soteriologies.pdf.

http://www.jwstudies.com/the_soteriology_of_thomas.pdf.

Cold Steel

Here's an interesting aspect of the gospel message based on other extra-biblical records that many scholars still want no part of. In fact, I've never seen it covered by the JWs in any of its literature...based on Acts 1:3.

Hugh Nibley. “The Forty Day Ministry.” Talk given at BYU Feb. 12, 1964, in mp3 format. Click here for part 1, here for part 2.

11

Another Blood Question

by Cold Steel in

village idiot » by the way, [one's wife] can be disfellowshipped for allowing her child to have a transfusion.. just a side question here, but what if the husband allows a child to receive a transfusion over the objection of the wife?.

let's say the wife joins the jws but the husband doesn't?

then, nine years later the husband allows their child to receive the transfusion.

Cold Steel

Village Idiot » By the way, [one's wife] can be disfellowshipped for allowing her child to have a transfusion.

Just a side question here, but what if the husband allows a child to receive a transfusion over the objection of the wife?

Let's say the wife joins the JWs but the husband doesn't? Then, nine years later the husband allows their child to receive the transfusion. And let's say the child is being raised a JW?

Or let's say they were both JWs but the husband left? Would she face any repercussions for not divorcing him before this became an issue?

Now here's another hypothetical. Both are JW converts, but their son is 15 and doesn't want any part of the religion. If they decided he was old enough to make his own decision, and they let him, could either be DFed? What if either had a parent who wasn't a JW, but needed a transfusion. Would the parent not being a JW be a mitigating factor?

I've been told that in situations involving blood transfusions, the KHs send people to the hospitals very quickly to take control of situations in which one or both parents may weaken in their resolve. I've always wondered how often that happens, that parents weaken. If they do, can they be forgiven? Does it normally take the decision of both parents to deny a child blood? And would it be possible to allow the transfusion and just not tell the elders? (For example, if a member simply disagreed with the policy.)

I imagine it would be tough to watch a child die by withholding blood, and especially if you did so and later figured out that the religion wasn't all it cracked up to be.

16

The GB wants us to read this bible passage to you!

by StephaneLaliberte in

i had a brother visit me yesterday to invite me to the memorial.

as usual, despite the unspoken passive aggressiveness, i was polite,.

anyway, this year, he started his presentation by saying: "the governing body (gb) wants us to read this bible passage to you!

Cold Steel

Steve2 » I wanted to get on a plane to the States and tell these loving men in person that I love them too.

And we love you for loving them!

Sniff...sniff!

Isn't it great when we all can just live together?

Cold Steel

Posts by Cold Steel

Forty Day Ministry